Well, first I thought the theater speaker,
an attendance it is a pleasure for me
to present their own entitled comparing
European perspective on freedom of speech.
That the current International
Congress on freedom of the spirit.
With the goal of the creation
of an international network,
free owner of the Spirit,
we are money for the organization of this.
The look from the University
of Buenos Aires on myself.
It has been an incredible to
see the passion with which the
speaker hot day of the third.
Our invitation.
We think that the freedom of 50
is now address at the same time
that is used over his limit.
Numerous say restrictions are taking all
over Europe while there is no control
over political radical radicalization.
40 some more it will be an honor
for us to have the opportunity
today to listen to the prominent
experts in this area out knowledge.
I have a now the pressure to percent in
the first speaker for their C's Care now.
Karina is a professor of law and
share of cost exceptional European
and international law beyond the
Department of Law on Social Science.
In the John Coates Arnosky University in
Kells and Vice president of the Police
Association of Constitutional Law.
Perfect for a Husqvarna has been
the Poly justice minister on
their ballots at presidency in the
19th and currently his well.
No Academy.
Activists an organizer or a yearly
international human rights conference
in myself where I had the pleasure to
participate in different occasions.
Among his wireless of paper,
he has published about political
responsibility and criminal
responsibility of politicians,
authoritarian tendencies in the police
political system or about the problem
of proportionality in use and the
relation to deal with the state of
emergency under artikkel 15 of the
European Convention on Human Rights.
The title the title of his speech
today will be freedom of speech
protesting religious symbols in Poland.
Professor just cornea is a
pressure for us to listen to you.
Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
I am really privileged to participate
in that very important Congress on
the Freedom of Information and also
I would like to use the occasion
to thank you for participating in
the international conferences.
And also we have 30 years tradition,
actually 30 volumes.
So your contribution was excellent
and very valuable.
I choose the subject of the freedom
of speech and freedom of religion.
Because 'cause you know.
There are two fundamental freedoms
which are in the equal footing
from the point of view of the
international human rights law.
And I would like to analyze that
situation with the current experience of
Poland based upon someone famous case,
but very specific and very characteristic,
and I suppose it might be
interesting for you.
But let's start with
some general observation.
Surely when we discussed the freedom
of speech and freedom of religion,
we must understand that when the liberty
of freely express oneself at also with
another rights to freedom of religion.
We're confronted with the classical
dilemma of choosing between two
equally fundamental constitutional
and international protected rights.
The contours.
All those set rights, however,
are not so clear.
Whilst freedom of expression
is not an absolute right,
its limits are controversial equally
or it is in disputed that freedom
of religion is an international
protected human rights enshrined
in several international documents.
There is no comprehensive international
treaty which addresses us subject.
The content and extent of right
or freedom of religion does.
It is uncertain whether it entails
right to have once religious fight
and symbols protectors from insult.
So when you take the Polish experience
from their constitutional point of view,
you have two rights protected by the
Constitution. That's without an adult.
We have the member of the Council of Europe,
where the link with the European
Convention of Human Rights.
But I would like to say that
not only by the Constitution.
Not even by the statutory law,
including the criminal law,
protection of the religious symbols
in Poland has specific meanings,
so it is dealing with the religious culture.
It is delinquent there.
You got a culture with the political
conscience and deeply rooted tradition.
That means that religious symbols are
specially protected and it is unfair.
It is against the law and this
against the tradition to attack.
The religious symbol so.
When we are comparing that with the
situation, let me make such a comparison.
Minton.
With that two states,
the United States and Germany.
You have in the United States and
those freedom of expression with
sacrosanct status which can be limited
only where there is a risk of imminent
danger or physical harm to third
parties or a threat of imminent violence.
But if you take the case of Germany model,
the individual religious sentiments,
dignity and identity are protected
from the severity and ridiculous
on any form of the greatest speech
against any religion is outlaw.
From that comparative.
Position when we observe that in
European Court of Human Rights is trying
to balance between those two values.
But when will take two that models
that we say American one and germinal.
One point is surely closer to the German one.
So that protection is very strong.
And it is executed not only now,
even during the communist I'm their
religious freedoms was protected.
Even the official ideology was 80s
and not so sympathetic to the church.
But even in that time it was protected.
And paradoxically,
because there was not freedom of speech
in that time, it was the censorship.
But censorship also protected
the religion freedoms.
And regional symbols.
So it was quite specific situation.
So after such a general comment
I would like to take the one
of the recent case in Poland.
Just from the situation
which occurred in 2019.
And went to the court and
let me say, what was that?
Verdict and some explanation of that verdict.
The District Court imports
acquitted three defendants.
Delay in the trial of
offending religious feelings.
It is about putting stickers with the
image of Our Lady of transfer over.
In a rainbow hello around one of the
local churches that was in quotes.
To understand the situation,
you must know what is meaning of
the Our Lady of chance to have a
because Our Lady of chance to have
a second to Ariel chance to revise.
The most important,
most famous one,
not only potent powder second
visited every Pope visited,
polling went to the chance to hover
and it is most not.
You can say most characteristic symbol
of the religion denomination if Poland.
So symbol of Our Lady of Transformers.
Is more you may say the crucial
one among those symbols which
religious people and the Roman
Catholic Church represent involved.
So putting the.
Such a symbol in such a confident
in putting this ticket which
is treated us LGBT symbol,
was treated as kind of the provocation,
and to understand the situation
you must see both feelings.
I spoke about the feeling Salvadorian,
protection of religion symbols,
but from another time you from
another uncle you must seem.
Confrontation about the
gay rights important LGBT.
So close fuse,
she steps free from the LGBT,
even the European Parliament
discussed that problem.
So we have very specific comprehension
controversial from one side there
are people who are cared about
religious symbol and treated that
as a provocation from another site.
We have the human rights people,
not only the gay community
LGBT community and the people
who said it is not abusive.
To present Our Lady which which
is some such a symbol which is.
Typical for the free public freedom of
speech is there is freedom of speech.
Maybe it would include it.
What the courts found interalia
that defendant's behavior did not
fulfill the characteristic of alleged
acts including intentional acts.
A throughout analysis of the evidence
presented by the prosecutor in the
case and the compressions analysis
of circumstances in of this case
did not indicate that defendants
with their behavior fulfilled
featured of a large criminal act.
It was the sentence of the judge,
and the analogy was following as the judge
emphasized the future of the accused.
Harvey only went three.
Of the elements are in total first.
When the religion of feelings of
other people who are offended.
Second,
the offense was caused by the insult
to the object of the religion,
worship or place of religion rituals.
In fact, when in South was done in public.
And the court said that accusation
didn't show. In any way that that action?
Was intentionally aimed.
Of offending the religious feelings of
Catholics and the intention was not
insult of the image of Our Lady of Cancer.
But what is interesting?
Of course,
the court was very careful because it was
the great public interest about this case,
so the judge said that large parts or
documentation in the case was a list
of the people declaring themselves
themselves as a practicing Catholics.
For example catechist and even clergymen.
Who declared directly pointed out that
the image of the Virgin Mary in the
Rainbow Hollow does not offend the catalyst,
that no smoke object of religion
worship and only gives food for
thought that not hot heteronormative
persons have the right to belong to the
community of the church and cannot be
stigmatized because of their orientation.
Additionally,
what Scott said,
the general public opinion polls also
indicate that the people who do not
accept such a modified image of Our Lady.
Remain.
In decided minority,
but I would like to also at one argument
from the argumentation of the Court,
because it is important for the
understanding of the situation.
The judge noted that the motive
behind the offenders behavior
was the support of LGBT people.
The fight for equality in response to
the installation of the Holy Sculpture
at send Dominic Church in plots.
Containing content that
equates LGBT people to sin.
In the opinion of the Court,
the symbol of not hot or
normative peopled ideas,
which was the draw attention to the
necessity of the quality of the people today.
Orientation belonging to gender.
Does not express negative thoughts.
Does not carry the manning
and shameful content.
I use that case to tell you
some general opinion.
To one side,
when the situation occur was very strong
reaction of the state authoritie's
the police arrested those ladies which
present in such a vision of Our Lady.
There was strong pressure to jail them
even as a breaking of the Criminal Code.
But reaction of the court,
in my mind suggested that attitudes
of the people important is changing.
Is several years ago,
such a case may be treated
and would be treated.
US clear,
provocation and clear breaking
of the criminal law.
Because in the atmosphere which
existed several years ago.
Every such an attempt.
May be treated as a provocation to our
church as a breaking of the rules as a
breaking of the tradition as unfair,
a behavior not tolerated and answer answer.
Actually we are seeing some change of
the attitudes of the people thought
the human rights toward the gay community,
which you probably intolerant always
was the kind of problem and in
such atmosphere we are maybe moving
political bit from the German model,
not from the low point of view,
because in the Constitution,
in the legal acts,
the construction remains the same,
but we are moving.
From the German model maybe little
bit tored the center tower,
the European Court of Human Rights
and for example to the Australian
system when they try to strike
a delicate balance between the
respect of the region,
sentiments and the freedom of speech.
It is kind of the new situation opponent.
The attitudes of the Polish
people are changing, of course.
Still,
the former leaders more than 90%
of the people belonging to the
church and politics treated as a
clearly Roman Catholic bastion.
But in real terms belonging of the
church is lowering first half of Apostasia.
Was also having place,
so in such a changing climate
such a verdict was possible,
and in my mind in create the atmosphere
for the further development.
Of course,
both values will be protected because
there is the cruel clearer state
protection under the Constitution.
There are two neighboring articles
of the Constitution, 54 and 55.
That means freedom of the religion.
And freedom of the speech.
Additionally,
in Article 14 you have them
freedom of the media,
so we are creating in Poland the atmosphere,
the social context,
cultural context which will
help to create the balance.
It is quite new in Poland.
I do not like to suggest that this
tendency will be spread because in
several countries such a balance was
previously achieved,
but in the Polish circumstances it
is quite real situation work to
analyze and situation which answering
the question that achieve balance.
It's not an easy way.
Because even under the jurisdiction
of the Strasbourg Court,
when we have the clear several cases,
as you know.
Such a tendency did not directly
influence the situation.
In particular,
Council of the Europe state,
because every state has its specificity
and important that specifically play
very important role in several areas.
So I used that example and I
hope my comment is kind of the
addition to the conference.
So once more again,
thank you very much for the invitation
and I am open to answering the question
if you would like to raise the question.
As a matter of fact,
my wife, Aisha,
is professor of the Warsaw University and
she's especially under media studies.
So if I will not answer the question,
she's ready to do that.
Thank you very much.
Thanks to you in the Air jersey.
Well,
I think in my opinion a the
religious feelings on Scientology
is a very controversial subject
now in here in Europe a I don't.
I have no idea about the
police yet this year,
but in in Spain we had year by year
we had problems with the attached.
It's professionals every year special.
Paper Easter sun associations.
Try to to make the artistic profession
and year by year the government,
the government for bite
is kind of the situation.
At the same time, of course,
the traditional one,
the Catholic Ull procession,
are allow a is a conflict between right
now is the right of the people feelings.
The right of the activists.
Now.
It's it's very controversial,
but in my humble opinion,
at the European level also there is
no any clear line of an instance in
the European Court of Human Rights.
A restaurant is quite controversial.
Princeton stick the case dial
up versus Switzerland.
A worker who has a against teacher
who where he had the European Court
of Human Rights a then a reject them.
Panel process off in Switzerland
even in later.
Later after he inverter Circuit A
who la Casa Islam ETS to them who
where he had also the European
Court of Human Rights refused to
to act against Turkey for that in
my opinion we had to take more.
I know as you mention it,
if a but they knew generations change
their mind now in another way,
but they.
Even we have to respect not the
feelings of the other people.
That's my humble opinion.
So I don't know if the area to Fernando
Health because we are only a few people.
If you have any question, edit.
Thank you Mr. Brown.
So when I can ask you
imagine that such a case.
It was bad the Our Lady will occur
now in Spain that somebody will use
that image of the lady in arrival.
Harlow clearly connected
with the LGBT movement.
How would be reaction on the Spanish
public opinion and how would we
eventually the the court decision
with such a case will go to the court?
Asociality atmosphere I
think here in Spain we had.
Money to a well change of mind,
especially for the old people know it.
10 years ago.
15 years ago was not possible to talk
about the homosexual rise, but now I think.
All people doesn't really affect,
but they respect and I finish
a well balanced.
I think the the good.
Tall announces stated my
must be little by little.
We cannot put from today to till tomorrow I.
Change special if this change
account through the law,
but it's my opinion I don't know
the the about the court sinus pain.
They only a thing a height
Eurydice nonprofits.
It was about the complaint against the
homosexual law on our Constitutional Court,
approved the slow,
so there is no anymore talk about that.
Till now. Yes, please let's edit.
Perhaps yeah, can you hear me?
Can you hear me?
Can you hear me little bit?
Can you speak? Good now. Is this good?
I hope we will hear you hold on let me.
I think my fault.
Can you hear me now? Can you hear?
Can you hear me now?
Little better,
yeah.
Alright then. Yeah, I mean of course
I've no expert on Spain, but I would.
I mean, we're obviously comes to mind.
Are the films of Almodovar
from as far back as the 1980s?
They had enormously blasphemous material.
Looking in particular with a film
called an entry 18 year Plus,
which in English is called dark habits.
You know where everything about the Catholic
Church was completely lampooned, and I don't.
I never heard that there was
any prosecution there might.
I'm sure there was public outrage or
outrage on the part of the church,
but as far as I know this was
never prosecuted.
Now that film is the early 1980s.
So it's decades ago and and
in subsequent films as well.
Also, just another remark,
and I think maybe this I think I would
have a somewhat different interpretation
following on from that point of German law.
Because I think German law would
distinguish far more clearly between
sort of traditional blasphemy.
On the one hand,
and on the other hand,
a kind of incitement in German
folks had some.
So if there is an incitement
against your religious minority,
almost as as if it were a racial group,
that is certainly illegal under German law,
but not anything that would be
sort of criticizing doctrine or
tradition in Germany that has
not been prosecuted for decades.
So I think that's a very
important distinction,
because they think in Poland that
distinction is and other countries.
That distinction is not so clear.
I don't know if that helps at all,
but it's just.
I think it's a distinction which
is important because I think in in
the jurisprudence of hate speech,
I think in the jurisprudence of
hate speech there's been a great
shift from traditional blasphemy
law to to to incitement,
which is a very different sort of law,
if that helps at all.
Thank you very much for that comment.
It is clarified.
I used it in comparison between American.
In German model.
Especially because the German model
seems to be little differently as kind
of the philosophy from the America one,
and let me enter my experience as a
young scientist when I prepare my page.
Dissertation,
I it was about the position of the state U.S.
Federal system.
And I approached the university library.
He in Cambridge and coming from Poland.
You know about the 1st amendment,
but I'm asking librarian would you?
Do you have some book
about the 1st amendment?
And he opened the way to the room,
which was may be 1015 meters here and say
all those books are about the person.
And so I almost collapsed because I
understand from this particular moment how
important is the 1st amendment and 1st
amendment theory and freedom of the speech,
and so on and so on.
And you know, I, of course,
right little bit about that in May during
cover conferences as David suggested.
It was only several times return
to that with that question,
but it seems to me that even maybe
there is some simplification.
There is kind of.
Philosophical different than that in
German Poland we have kind of the
tradition of protection of their church
stronger in the United in United States,
and as a reason for that I suppose.
It is the pluralism religious
pluralism United States.
And when I say this,
not such a 01 game as we can observe
him falling for several years,
that church and nature.
Because if church that is Roman
Catholic Church in such a situation,
is very possible to build the
construction of anti church behavior,
because everything which is against
their religion is practically
against the Roman Catholic Church.
When you have the pluralism.
United States. That you have Catholics.
You have the Protestants.
You have Jewish more priceless.
The region could not play us.
Important role Visa V freedom of
speech because every part of the
society behaved in the region area,
little bit different so there is not
such a claim that if somebody say something.
Wrong about their religion
or similar and in the.
So very much in the service amendment,
so I suppose that's kind
of their cultural source.
Of course,
in Germany there is little bit
different situation that Catholics,
Protestants, you know,
that's kind of the division,
and that's also played a role,
and I think I think.
Also,
even you know if we go back as far as
the 30 years war in the 17th century,
that was a strong impetus for second,
for kind of more constitutional
secularism in Germany.
Which so,
and then that's why I think in contemporary
German law blasphemy is something very,
very different from incitement.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's very important,
and additionally I originally came from some
donations and only choose seating known,
also called Sanders agreement,
which is the protection of the
different religion rights.
Important is kind of the same specific
some sensation protection of all
the rights of all believers because
not everybody like that because some
people think that it should be only
the Catholic Church and so and so.
But anyway, I think we observed him
pulling the changing attitudes of the
people that deserve very quite knew.
For example, we see the tendency for
the first time that young people,
younger generation, those still 2030.
Good move tored the left at you.
Teenagers and teenagers you know.
Of course it does not automatically
mean that it will be transmitted to
the political parties affirmation and so on,
but it is quite new and I would like to
tell you that there is several regional.
And one of the reasons is the paradox.
That check was never a strong,
compelling as it is now from their
point of view of political influence,
from the point of view of wealth,
they taking dagger and they
introduce after 89.
Obligatory religion in school.
Not only, but you know,
teaching graduate schools.
Which,
from the church point of view,
seems to be the instrument of the educate the
younger people to other religion and so on.
But in effect we see the different
situation because when during the
communist I'm religion was with the
church rooms with the parishes.
And kind of the manifestation
that if you enter government,
you are going to the church
or very forgotten son.
So if you put the religion to
the schools as a normal subject.
It is not so good for the regimen.
We observe the situation with
planner less and less young people
go to such as again.
Such a such a treasure special lesson so
you know situation is very complicated.
And the demand point,
which I try to present in the paper
was that that not only constitution
cares because I have list as you know,
and you also have such a lease out
their judgments of the European Court
of human needs we have the judgments.
Upon their Court of Justice of the
European Union we have that United
Nations standards up on the conference.
We had a huge list,
with seven Solera, very precise.
Servation and argumentation,
but that element which we do not care.
Enough,
it's my position is some social context,
which that problem is really realized,
so you couldn't only quote different
judgments of the Strasbourg court.
To understand everything.
Because in every Council of Europe
country you have the different
circumstances and that same rights
that same judgments that same line of
argumentation of the courts played a
different role in different circumstances.
And I suppose what we see now in Poland,
this kind of the changing of the attitudes.
So if we meet after a couple of years,
we may be in such a different situation,
even though the Constitution
were standards remain the same.
And even though this travel
standards would be the same,
because the situation in
societies is changing attitudes,
is changing tolerance is changing
and approach of the younger people
are changing and that may bring
about some consequences in the sum.