Doctor Powell Kovalski that is a low
professor of the East WPS University
of Social Science and Humanities
in Barsaat Professor Kowalski is
also a qualified legal counsel.
On in his academic work about ski
deals with the European Union law,
with a particular focus on core
of justice of the European Union,
precedents on international law and
legal profit. Protection of culture.
He has done research in academic
institutions in Miramar, Indonesia,
Unexpand where I had the pleasure
to meet him in an international
Congress about his spirits in Seville.
Among his publication is important
to refer here the paper role of the
European Court of Justice in Protection
rights of individuals in European Union.
On the office space today is buying up
independence media by the state or the
heads of the politician who run it.
For Polish experience,
Officer Kowalski is a pleasure
for us to listen to you.
Thank you very much,
even though thank you very much
for the invitation and it was very,
very interesting to hear about
the human rights,
especially combining my experience
from from Asia from me.
And now it's actually changed
from a change for for a couple of
years to be a more democratic,
but we see where it LED them.
Or Indonesia as you said, yeah,
I'm going to speak about the.
The freedom of press in Poland
and how it's how it's changing and
it's a very very dynamic situation.
Why, well,
just at like 2 days ago we had
a President Obama who said such
forests for the interview for CNN.
He said all of U.S.
citizens have to recognize that the
path towards undemocratic America is
not gonna happen in just one bank.
It happens.
In a series of steps and as an
example for the functioning Democracia
democracies that.
Transfer into an authoritarian countries.
Barack Obama mentioned Poland and Hungary.
Those two.
That's a very sad,
sad sum up of what happened in
Poland in the last 7-8 years.
Because Obama was here eight years
10 years ago and he said that Poland
is one of the top countries to
develop democratic right extending right?
And what happens? And most of these things.
I got it from them from the parties.
It happens because of the media
now media free media freedom is
a fundamental of democracy and.
Who knows it the best?
The best knows that Europe are you.
I'll say the Europe least democratic
governments know they know it because
they know how to they know it because
they know they're trying and they
know how to squeeze it in the way
in the way to make it non function
not only in Poland in Hungary,
just just a few months ago one of the last.
Radio that was the that was criticizing them.
The Prime Minister or bond was
not given that concession.
They cannot broadcast anymore,
and they're important.
They chose the government,
just different approach. In Poland,
we got the power on state owned company.
The state owned company which does
which is working in gas and oil.
The company is picky and Orland there.
Just for the developing fuel for the,
for the. Transferring the pure around
the around the country and now they are
being accused for buying the media that.
The ruling party use them to buy right now,
couple hundreds of small titles in Poland.
So at this moment most of the media
are being bought up by there by the
state and the goal of course is
not store make any kind of to make
any kind of diversification of the.
Of the market for the for the
for this company,
but it's to control it even a couple
of weeks after it was it was taken.
The main directors there.
The main people who are running those those
those are being thrown out even more.
We had a we have the court ruling initiated
by the police ombudsman by Professor Bodnar.
And this ruling said that overtaking
of the media of this group,
media media company was.
Was not was not allowed,
was not in accordance with the law,
it was illegal.
Even though it was illegal, it still happens.
So no one from the government,
no one from the no one from them.
No prosecutor to care about,
so in this moment we actually
are right now we got.
We got a court ruling which
is not which is not started.
So in that case.
There the police and the police
government is trying to either.
Buy out the media and if
they cannot buy out them,
they're doing a different thing.
Which is they trying to starve them can.
You can imagine that in Poland most of
the non non governmental or those who
are criticizing them, the government,
newspapers and media they're not.
They are not receiving any
kind of advertisement that Vert
Iseman that were 4050%.
Of their income just now disappeared.
So there is completely no chance
for them for them to survive.
And we see that the people that the number
of people which is working there is falling,
that the the area they are covering
is much right now is much lesser.
So in that case.
Either way,
we are losing their control over
the government because free media is
trying a peacemaking is is chasing
the the things that is chasing them.
The overuse of the power which
happens very often in in in Poland
right now and it's trying to tell
it up to the to the media.
And we know that it's not.
We know that it's not.
It's not running safely.
Well today we had a situation where the.
At one of the most important
ministers in Poland, he's.
His account was stolen by the by the
by the Russians or the relations.
We don't know that,
and most of the secret documents
were just published.
So in that case,
and he kept all of this information
on the public server,
not on the not on the state,
not on this state state server.
So because of the pandemic,
because of the what happens in the
last in the last two years the media
freedom in Poland is facing the.
Greatest challenge is it.
2015 sees the change of the season
since the change of the of the
of the room and two even more
to know in which way it may.
It may follow it, just we.
It's enough to to look on the
Polish media on the police.
Tynan, second channel of humans.
If we right now are trying
to follow this information,
we see that this information
are being either fake up,
or there is false information
or not full information,
so we don't see any kind of criticism,
really. No criticisms.
I give you an example of because couple
of days ago one of the former Polish
ministers are well known in Europe.
Do not ask.
Decided and he mentioned that he
may come back to Poland to help
the to help to do the position
for the last five days.
There is always a short clip about
something about Donald Toast in
Polish media in in this in the in the
prime time and it's always a short
phrase said by him fuer Deutschland,
so the meaning is that he's doing
something for Deutschland and it's being.
Uh showed up every day at primetime at 7:30,
so after the one second,
third, 4th. People start to believe
some of the people are following it,
so the problem in this moment
is really I would say grievous.
EU is trying to do something about it,
but The thing is actually is not
changing the possibilities like that.
The first thing is if the if the state
cannot over by the media and if the state
cannot start the media because of the.
Because of the not placing the advertisement,
there is a third action overtaken by
the government which is overflowing
the independent media with lawsuits.
Right now when there was a.
When it was proven that there is a, uh,
the chief of this picky and Orland,
the chief, the chief of the of the media.
Right now the media company,
the Oakland Media Company.
Overuse his power.
His lawyers almost everyday sending a new
lawsuit against the against the compound,
so it's nothing but the one talk,
but we're thinking about couple of 100 law,
so it's against the company.
They need to spend the money for the
lawyers and they need to spend the time.
And in that case they cannot
work efficiently,
and that's what we're talking about.
It's a huge freezing effect on the less less.
On the on the on those who are
who are still on the market that
people are deciding not to publish,
not to, not to say things.
If they are going to be charged
by the by the police.
If they're going to charge by them.
By the courts and by the prosecution,
which is which is which is chasing
them which is chasing them.
A lot,
so in this case Poland is falling and
it's it's following the steps of the hunger.
In Hungary there are almost
no free media in Poland.
We still got couple of the free media.
They are much stronger,
but we we cannot see how long they will
last because it's changing every every day.
So in this case, well,
the Polish situation right now and
access to an information seems.
Very bad,
so well.
Media freedom is incredibly important,
but right now we are driving the way
to to Hungary and probably the loss
of the free media empowerment. Pink.
That said about his power, yeah.
Thanks to you power,
of course the media is up rates
not only in Poland.
I think all over the world know
alot of the journalists are killer
because they they probably.
It's a embitterment reports or
human rights reports an it's a
terrible thing all over the world.
In fact we didn't discuss about
the terrorists, but when the media?
It's a it's a publishing son
reports about the terror in see it.
Complete everything, not hearing this pain.
We had them.
At least it I remember remind now one
case where newspaper was essential
rate by the well by the medium core
because we had the intermediate court
that is called a national audience.
Yeah,
and this newspaper was relationship
with the Etherion Sanwa
censor rating the 19th.
After years the Supreme Court.
Every release this sentences,
but that in fact it is a
newspaper disappear forever.
It was a terrible thing for us.
If you're apparently well. I I can't.
I can't remind now the suited
versus target case law where turkeys
journalist bus was prosecuted,
prosecuted by the Turkish
government because they.
Has publishers on military actions
against the Kurdish people.
Finally, the European Court of
the Human Rights approved this
national panel prosecute or not,
in my opinion, was a pity, but.
Yeah, that's it.
I don't know,
so I don't know if they.
Any one of you might say we'd like
to us a son question to power.
Professor knows the situation so.
Situation, yeah.
We cannot listen to you.
So well, of course following the situation,
but it might be interesting for
re colleagues your prediction
how you will see the development,
especially under the European Union pressure,
because asked to us all colleagues hired
in Poland was the strong discussion.
About To what extent the European Union
can interfere in Polish relations?
Of course, the most important case
it is judicial judicial system,
because once the European Union
upon the article,
second of the Treaty of the European Union,
saying we are the commuter values,
there is rule of law and the value we
should be implementing all the States.
The PT Government is claiming.
We're very sorry,
but the structure of the judiciary is
our competence as a individual state.
And you know,
and the problem was also what kind
of the pressure could be functional.
And as you know,
I know that instrument is there financial
sanctions very delicate issue because,
you know,
from one side the Polish people
like to have that big program
of the European Union after the
KOVIT live from another site.
It is the question of what may happen if
that would be not progress in the area
of the human rights which the media,
freedom,
freedom media is also very important.
So what is your prediction
inter particular area?
Do you think that the pressure of
the Union looking will be effective
or you predict that government
will go their way or neglect the
suggestion of the European Union?
And will create some different scenario.
Professor Presser I was.
Counting from the European Union
very much and all of these things,
all of this action taken in the
name of European Union because,
well, it's needed for the Community.
On the other hand,
I was for the few couple of few few months.
I'm thinking why it's happening so
slow and I came to to a rather sad
conclusions which are saying that for
some states in the European Union the
week Poland that is unable to create
any kind of any kind of coalitions,
any kind of any kind of alliances,
it's a good a good thing.
In in European Union,
because what will be standing almost
outside of the European Union,
just saying that we are agreeing for
something or not, but we will not be well.
We need to.
We need to follow.
Of course the rules which are
in the EU but will not be taken
into any kind of alliances.
Of course,
as you said,
the Polish governments are right now.
Saying that the fundaments of the
European Union,
which was said by the by the main
cases by Simental by.
By customs order,
other cases are saying that,
well, there is no nothing.
Nothing like European Union law
over the Polish constitution.
Of course they are in the same
way that it's not that easy,
but it's trying to be shown as easy as it is,
so my predictions was.
Half of the year ago was kinda good.
Right now the slowdown from the
European side shows me that it
may be good for other powers in
European Union just to keep us aside.
So my predictions at this moment are
very bad because I see how all of this
small media groups how all of this
small small newspapers are dying.
I buy one by one and how these
people who were able to find out
a lot of media overuse are now
either outside of the job or some
of their state because they are
still they still got the power,
but at this moment, well,
if there will be no change of the government,
I'm not seeing that very well.